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Jedi
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kyle wrote:
The time is almost hear Sad just a little more than 14 hours. I am a bit sad Sad.

No reason to be.


I really don't want to see more rights taken away and have Americans powerless.

Do you have any basis for this or do you just say this every 4 years?

Have our nations debt climb higher and see the elimination of the middle class.

Our nation's debt will climb higher and the middle class will disappear in the short run but in the long term it should improve a lot.

I can already see that this will most likely be 2 terms (8 years).

If he fails he's out at the end of his term.

This is because Obama will spend money on what people think they want and that will make the people happy even at the expense of raising the national debt as much or more than the bush administration did.

If our president makes the people happy, then I'm fine with it.

And if Obama get enough of the people happy with him who knows if congress will revoke the 2 term limit and let him be dictator longer.

Are you serious with this or are you just trying to be funny because it's hard to detect sarcasm on the net? It's not gonna happen. In addition, the president is NOT a dictator and if the people want him to be, he wouldn't be a dictator.
Another thing to add is that if Obama makes the people happy, what do you have against him?

I'm sure their will be riots but like all riots the media will be on the opposite side making millions believe that the rioters are in the wrong.

If the people are happy as you said above why the hell would there be riots?

All in all, I'm glad that Obama's coming in. I think he'll help our country turn around and go on the right track.

@desolate Even if you think Obama will be a bad president, it doesn't mean you should be "forced" to watch it. It's something that happens only once every 4 years so you should see it.

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øwned wrote:
kyle wrote:
I really don't want to see more rights taken away and have Americans powerless.

Do you have any basis for this or do you just say this every 4 years?
This is the first time that i have said it, I've finally woken up and realized what type of crap they are doing to us. They are restricting use of products, making companies have more bull crap shit to file. The have created patten suits that end even if the 2 products up for debate effect people differently. Ultimately making people have ill effects from a product that won the battle. They are controlling our lives more an more. Face it we will be powerless. Obama is no different than the rest (please note i mean the last 100 years).

øwned wrote:
I can already see that this will most likely be 2 terms (8 years).

If he fails he's out at the end of his term.
He can still FAIL and be reelected, look at bush. he will Fail in my terms, but he'll make the people who can make it out to vote happy so he'll be elected.

øwned wrote:
This is because Obama will spend money on what people think they want and that will make the people happy even at the expense of raising the national debt as much or more than the bush administration did.

If our president makes the people happy, then I'm fine with it.
This is their trap, eventually those debts are going to cost our nation more money in interest than they can take in each year. This is the one thing that millions of people don't care about. our nation is in debt an just keep wasting more and more money Taxes will have to go up at the rate they spend money. making people very unhappy, they happiness will be short lived.


øwned wrote:
And if Obama get enough of the people happy with him who knows if congress will revoke the 2 term limit and let him be dictator longer.

Are you serious with this or are you just trying to be funny because it's hard to detect sarcasm on the net? It's not gonna happen. In addition, the president is NOT a dictator and if the people want him to be, he wouldn't be a dictator.
Another thing to add is that if Obama makes the people happy, what do you have against him?
Possible Razz, but no i don't think it will happen.

øwned wrote:
I'm sure their will be riots but like all riots the media will be on the opposite side making millions believe that the rioters are in the wrong.

If the people are happy as you said above why the hell would there be riots?
Not all people will be, probably around 3-5% of the population who realize what is happening, and maybe also the businesses they are killing. jobs that they are demolishing. They have left the free market and decide they have to be in every situation just to prolong the big economic slump. It will happen and the longer they wait the wore it will get.

øwned wrote:
All in all, I'm glad that Obama's coming in. I think he'll help our country turn around and go on the right track.
Typical comment, he'll just create more national debt.

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blah blah

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kyle wrote:
øwned wrote:
kyle wrote:
I really don't want to see more rights taken away and have Americans powerless.
Do you have any basis for this or do you just say this every 4 years?
This is the first time that i have said it, I've finally woken up and realized what type of ***PEEP-BO!*** they are doing to us. They are restricting use of products, making companies have more bull ***PEEP-BO!*** ***PEEP-BO!*** to file. The have created patten suits that end even if the 2 products up for debate effect people differently. Ultimately making people have ill effects from a product that won the battle. They are controlling our lives more an more. Face it we will be powerless. Obama is no different than the rest (please note i mean the last 100 years).
And your evidence that Obama will continue these policies? You yourself said that he will change are country (albeit in your opinion for the worse.)

øwned wrote:
I can already see that this will most likely be 2 terms (8 years).
If he fails he's out at the end of his term.
He can still FAIL and be reelected, look at bush. he will Fail in my terms, but he'll make the people who can make it out to vote happy so he'll be elected.
He can fail, but considering the immensity of his proposal he's either going to succeed and help our country improve for years to come, or he will fail and greatly worsen our country. There is no middle ground. While Bush did badly during his first term, it is nothing when compared to the scope of Obama's plan. So if he fails, Americans will realize how badly our country is doing and vote a Republican in.

øwned wrote:
This is because Obama will spend money on what people think they want and that will make the people happy even at the expense of raising the national debt as much or more than the bush administration did.
If our president makes the people happy, then I'm fine with it.
This is their trap, eventually those debts are going to cost our nation more money in interest than they can take in each year. This is the one thing that millions of people don't care about. our nation is in debt an just keep wasting more and more money Taxes will have to go up at the rate they spend money. making people very unhappy, they happiness will be short lived.
I will concede the point that he could seem to help us out in the short term, but not in the long run. But I think that his plans will improve this country in the long and short run. There's a reason many economists(http://econ4obama.blogspot.com/2008/06/obama-economic-advisors-and-economic.html), including now Paul Krugman, a Nobel Prize winner have endorsed him.

øwned wrote:
I'm sure their will be riots but like all riots the media will be on the opposite side making millions believe that the rioters are in the wrong.

If the people are happy as you said above why the hell would there be riots?
Not all people will be, probably around 3-5% of the population who realize what is happening, and maybe also the businesses they are killing. jobs that they are demolishing. They have left the free market and decide they have to be in every situation just to prolong the big economic slump. It will happen and the longer they wait the worse it will get.
Bush has been hated around our country for many years now, how many riots has there been? They are few and far between (in our country.)


øwned wrote:
All in all, I'm glad that Obama's coming in. I think he'll help our country turn around and go on the right track.
Typical comment, he'll just create more national debt.
While you may be right, I'll trust his multiple economist supporters and remain optimistic to the road ahead.

Anyways, WOOT Obama's in!!!!!!! Wave Cheer Applause Welcome Smile Very Happy jajaja

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Well, his speech I have to say was nothing special, talking of our problems. The actual content of it was pretty expected. Though Obama did a fine job in my opinion, the chief justice making the mistake and Obama realizing it. His speaking skills were also very good during his speech.

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it's no one man show. it all depends on his advisors and staff down in Washington DC. we can expect similar decision as there were in Clinton's era because most of Obama's staff had served Clinton. About those few newcomers in Obama's cabinet: politics is a lot about lobbying, networking, socializing, egoism and unscrupulousness. It'll be hard for the new ones. Don't excerpt any surprise.

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We improved a lot in Clinton's era. So hopefully history will repeat itself.

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I can't take clinton seriously after watching episodes of Family Guy.

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First of all sorry for some of that objectionable language.

@woned
I don't feel like quoting anymore Razz. First off, maybe I should not have said he will change it, I think the changes from the past years will start to show as he try to move them forward faster. the Americans will start seeing change as the previous changes were more slow an not very noticeable. This more rapid change will be what causes the riots. with bush we knew what was expected with obama the quickness of the changes will cause the riots.
If obama messes up you are right the people will vote in a republican, but is still think obama will get his 2 terms before the Americans do that he'll make the claims that 4 years was not enough to make them all That will be enough for him to keep his supporters and be reelected. A republican and democrat will just continue falling into the traps of the Republicrats until the wake up way to late. Nothing will be changed switching between the parties there is hardly a difference between the 2. They both want to keep wasting money just in different ways. Their has to be a true downfall with the mess they created or else the national debt will just keep rising as they keep pushing money, that they don't have, prematurely into the system. you mentioned Paul Krugman. he basically supports a form of Keynesian economics, Have you looked at the charts for our national debt since the 1920/1930. you can see that Keynesian economics has only increased our national debt. it was almost even at the turn of the century and up until this idea started being practiced. It has not worked in the past why will it work now?

øwned wrote:
We improved a lot in Clinton's era. So hopefully history will repeat itself.
I must say my information on Clinton is very limited, I do remember watching the TV when he won his second term. But from my understanding It was him that made it so lenders would lend to people that could not truly afford something. it is truly what started this mess. I won't put all the blame on him but in 1999 capitol hill saw where we were headed and nothing was done about it. It basically let the lenders lend to people who could not afford it. listen to Bob Barr (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t5waL8brexY).

Finally I stopped listening just a few minutes into obama's speech because of the lie he said. He claimed that more regulation is what we need in the market. but in reality if you've read what i just said it was their problem that developers for the past 10 years, they knew about it and did not do a thing. in reality it was their regulation to make lenders lend to the people that could not afford things. but why do people who know they can't afford something still buy it, why don't people read the fine print in contracts, why don't they pick up on the information that could effect them later on. Why? its because they know if they FAIL the government will just keep picking them back up again. That's the message this Bailout is sending to me. heck i could start a research facility for alternative energies. government will just dump money into that. I could fail on finding it multiple times and just blame it on the founding so they will just keep spilling in the money. From this prospective if i could prove that to be true then wouldn't you say they are wasting the money? Isn't that what they have done to GM, they invested in them to create a hydrogen fuel cell that took years and years to create, but the lack of fueling centers has virtually wasted that idea. Its because the gas company does not want to invest in it because they keep having massive profits from their gasoline sales.

anyway he is in :'( i hope more people will wake up to what is happening.

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Simple little message, you sound like my Dad kyle, and my Dad is a very smart guy, interested in politics and very educated on it.

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kyle wrote:

Finally I stopped listening just a few minutes into obama's speech because of the lie he said. He claimed that more regulation is what we need in the market. but in reality if you've read what i just said it was their problem that developers for the past 10 years, they knew about it and did not do a thing. in reality it was their regulation to make lenders lend to the people that could not afford things.


The only thing I can assure you is that the problem that it has generated the enormous crisis we are experiencing has been the lack of market regulation. The lack of standards which should have prevented the banks to lend money that the people can afford.
If banks were unable to grant mortgages in excess of the value of homes and over the ability of people to return the money, we would not be in crisis.
And your focus is very short. You speak as if you think only USA is in crisis. I need to remember you that whole world is in crisis, independently of his government policy. Maybe you need to see that it is a problem of the capitalism and his main rule: "everything is allowed in the free market andlet the free market to regulate itself"
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Puuquie wrote:
Maybe you need to see that it is a problem of the capitalism and his main rule: "everything is allowed in the free market andlet the free market to regulate itself"
Yes but politicians don't go by that. Banks were ready to start buying up some of the paperwork to regulate itself then the government decided they had to get involved. Yes i know it is worldwide but I think a lot of it is the government getting in the way of the free market. I know that Home builders in the US were putting hidden costs in paperwork. If you did not read them then you would not have been prepared for it and loose your home. Anyway it's the stupid consumer that causes problems. or the ones that don't care about debt. We all should be smart enough but I know in the USE the government basically has a FAILING department of education. a department so influential to schools but only gives them about 50 USD. anyway in short Consumers need to be smart and government needs to be less influential in the free market. But puu it truly was the government forcing the lenders to lend to the people who could not afford it so that it looked like our economy was doing very well.

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kyle wrote:

I don't feel like quoting anymore Razz.
I'm still good with it. Very Happy

First off, maybe I should not have said he will change it, I think the changes from the past years will start to show as he try to move them forward faster. the Americans will start seeing change as the previous changes were more slow an not very noticeable. This more rapid change will be what causes the riots. with bush we knew what was expected with obama the quickness of the changes will cause the riots.
If you look at our country's history, the major riots were caused by either a major cause they all were for (Civil Rights, no more slavery, 1968 DNC against the Vietnam War,) or a atrocity that suddenly happens (MLK/RFK/JFK assassinations, Los Angeles Rodney King Riot in the 90's.) The economy failing meets none of these. After the Stock Market Crash in 1929, there were very few riots if any. So if Obama does not succeed, and our country goes into a downturn, I doubt anything will get violent.

If obama messes up you are right the people will vote in a republican, but is still think obama will get his 2 terms before the Americans do that he'll make the claims that 4 years was not enough to make them all That will be enough for him to keep his supporters and be reelected.
I'll concede this point. I guess the only way for him not to be reelected is if something extremely serious (i.e. a stock market crash) happens.

A republican and democrat will just continue falling into the traps of the Republicrats until the wake up way to late. Nothing will be changed switching between the parties there is hardly a difference between the 2. They both want to keep wasting money just in different ways. Their has to be a true downfall with the mess they created or else the national debt will just keep rising as they keep pushing money, that they don't have, prematurely into the system.
I believe that the Democrats care more about the poor and the Middle Class than the Republicans. Bush's recent tax cuts to the wealthy and Obama's promise of no raises to the bottom 95% seem to show this. In addition, while Bush was the exception, the Republicans tend to make Government small while the Democrats do the complete opposite. And also, look at this: http://www.lafn.org/politics/gvdc/Natl_Debt_Chart_2006.gif

you mentioned Paul Krugman. he basically supports a form of Keynesian economics, Have you looked at the charts for our national debt since the 1920/1930. you can see that Keynesian economics has only increased our national debt. it was almost even at the turn of the century and up until this idea started being practiced. It has not worked in the past why will it work now?
The national debt did grow, I agree. And it has been growing basically every since. But do you know what else went up? Our GDP. So while our debt was getting bigger, so was the total money we could use which basically negated it's effects. In fact, when the results of the plan fully came out, our debt as percentage of GDP went down 20% over 4 and 40% over 10 years.

øwned wrote:
We improved a lot in Clinton's era. So hopefully history will repeat itself.
I must say my information on Clinton is very limited, I do remember watching the TV when he won his second term. But from my understanding It was him that made it so lenders would lend to people that could not truly afford something. it is truly what started this mess. I won't put all the blame on him but in 1999 capitol hill saw where we were headed and nothing was done about it. It basically let the lenders lend to people who could not afford it.
I do agree with you in that he had bad ideas. Had he stayed President, we probably would have experienced a similar crash, albeit much smaller. Clinton had simply regulated too much. But when Bush came in, he went completely in the opposite direction. He let Wall Street do whatever they wanted and whenever they wanted. This caused it to go out of control. Americans were ripped off due to loss of regulation, not the opposite. Check this-it's very similar to how our current downturn happened. It's worth the time. http://www.ritholtz.com/blog/2009/01/60-minutes-on-crude-oil-speculation/ The problem isn't regulation. It's having either too little or too much that is the problem.

Finally I stopped listening just a few minutes into obama's speech because of the lie he said. He claimed that more regulation is what we need in the market. but in reality if you've read what i just said it was their problem that developers for the past 10 years, they knew about it and did not do a thing. in reality it was their regulation to make lenders lend to the people that could not afford things
Invalid due to what was said above.

. but why do people who know they can't afford something still buy it, why don't people read the fine print in contracts, why don't they pick up on the information that could effect them later on. Why? its because they know if they FAIL the government will just keep picking them back up again. That's the message this Bailout is sending to me.
In fact very few companies are being bailed out. And Congress has made it clear to the car companies that if they don't pick their act up fast, they're going bankrupt.

heck i could start a research facility for alternative energies. government will just dump money into that. I could fail on finding it multiple times and just blame it on the founding so they will just keep spilling in the money.
Look above.

Isn't that what they have done to GM, they invested in them to create a hydrogen fuel cell that took years and years to create, but the lack of fueling centers has virtually wasted that idea.
I don't know much about this, so I'll stay quiet.

Its because the gas company does not want to invest in it because they keep having massive profits from their gasoline sales.
Exxon's profit rose 14% while Gas rose by nearly 100. While it is partly their fault, it's not nearly as much as everyone says.

@big d You can be smart yet still have the wrong idea.

Edit: puuquie beat me to it.

Anyways, we're not getting anywhere. Let's agree to disagree, stop arguing, and in a couple years see who was right.

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øwned wrote:
Anyways, we're not getting anywhere. Let's agree to disagree, stop arguing, and in a couple years see who was right.
Sure Razz

I last thing to point out though, I was looking back through the charts of national debt. both Truman and Eisenhower lowered the debt slightly in a few of their years. Truman for 1 year and Eisenhower for 2 years. Anyways i would rather see national debt go down than it continuing to rise into a point where the interest on it is more than the government takes in a year.

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debt is a necessary part of capitalism
stop fearing it kyle
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